Tape #343, Side A & B
Date: 6/19/92
 
AB Alice Brown
SD - Sylvia Davis
IA - Inaudible
 
1 (Side A begins)
2 SD: It's a beautiful color. That's one of my favorite, favorite
3 colors.
4 AB: Really?
5 SD: Uh-huh So that's a safe color for you?
6 AB: Uh-huh.
7 SD: A certain kind of purple.
8 AB: Yes, this kind of purple.
9 SD: That kind of purple is your safe purple. Um, you know, your
10 T-shirt that's, um, um, the San Antonio or whatever it is?
11 AB: Uh-huh.
12 SD: Your sister, um, finds that to be a not a very good shirt to
13 wear.
14 AB: Uh-huh.
15 SD: And I think that she may be working at, uh, sometimes at a
16 level you haven't gotten to yet, so I was wondering if you
17 would be willing to like trust her memories of that and we
18 could put that shirt away.
19 AB: Why?
20 SD: Because, um, she thinks that that shirt may, um, activate
21 stuff in you that we haven't worked with yet and that could

1
1 get in the way of your therapy. It does for her. That's
2 what that shirt does for her and since you were together on
3 that trip, my thought is that somebody inside might (IA) a
4 memory that we haven't gotten to yet, because it's been real 5 protected.
6 AB: I don't know.
7 SD: You think it's worth taking a chance? (Pause) Okay. And
8 after all, you need to make some space in your closet for the
9 things you're going to be bringing home from the store. Right?
10 AB: When?
11 SD: Soon.
12 AB: Soon?
13 SG: Relatively soon.
14 AB: Very soon?
15 SD: Pretty soon. Why don't you, um, want to get it out, and I'll
16 just put it behind here so I don't forget it. Okay.
17 AB: It's dirty.
18 SD: That's okay.
19 AB: All right. (Pause) I was going to wash it tonight. Can I
20 sit in there?
21 SD: Yes. Sure. I gave you that choice the first thing (noise).
22 Okay. Now here's this and this. Right?
23 AB: You came --
24 SD: So --

2
1 AB: You came yesterday during my journal time. But I did a
2 little bit this afternoon.
3 SD: Okay.
4 AB: Not in there.
5 SD: Nothing in this one?
6 AB: Nothing in that one.
7 SD: Okay. Well, this has some stuff I, I need to, to remember
8 about, so I just want to have another look at it. I looked
9 at your art work today and, um, that filled in a lot of
10 information for us, your art work and, and your whole
11 progression with that. That was very good work today.
12 (Pause) (Shuffling papers) So was that a dream or a
13 remembrance?
14 AB: Remembrance.
15 SD: A remembrance. Yeah, I forgot to tell you that I also talked
16 with Dr. Seward today. So you told him a little bit about
17 the bad dream and you worked with Pat about the bad dream.
18 What's happening?
19 AB: Nothing.
20 SD: You looked like you were... dazing out.
21 AB: I'm just listening to you.
22 SD: Huh?
23 AB: I'm listening to you.
24 SD: Oh. Well, I'm not trying to trance you out or anything so,
25 you know, you can look at me and move and smile and all that

3
1 kind of stuff. So if my voice is being too monotonous, um,
2 I'll try to adjust that. Okay. Let's, Bethany. Oh,
3 Bethany's having such a hard time with containing these
4 memories. I'm hoping that we can write, that all of you can
5 write and write and write so that we can have an abreaction
6 and Bethany and everybody else can get some relief. Bethany
7 and everybody else, also. (Pause) Did anybody peek in on
8 that little two-year-old after our session, just a peek and
9 see if she was okay with her friend in her little room?
10 Nobody did? Okay. Now, here are the steps for getting ready
11 for an abreaction. Okay? Here are the steps. One, you
12 establish your, uh, signals. We've got the toe tappers and
13 they're very trustworthy and good communicators and doing a
14 good job. Two, you establish enough safe places for the ones
15 who are not gonna be working in the abreaction to go to.
16 Okay? For example, the two-year-old should probably not come
17 while we're working on the crystal stuff. Right? Right. So
18 you've got enough safe places so that those folks can be in
19 there and can, uh, you know, listen to music or can, um, have
20 cotton in their ears or, you know, whatever so that they have
21 a nice place to be and are not part of the work that's being
22 done, because we don't want to scare people unnecessarily.
23 Okay? So that has to be set up. Three, we have to get the
24 content, the information written down so that we know who all
25 is gonna be going through what memories, remembering what.

4
1 Okay? Uh, and we need to, um, have everybody, uh, practiced
2 with going through a memory very fast. Now, everybody
3 doesn't have that practice you're telling me. Right?
4 Everybody doesn't want to have the memory fast? Do people
5 want to have it slow and drag it out so that something that
6 took two hours of being in pain would still take two hours?
7 No, that's not what you mean. What do you mean? Say words.
8 I'm not knowing what you nean.
9 AB: No.
10 SD: No what? Some people don't want to do it? Okay.
11 AB: No. I want to do it.
12 SD: Oh. Don't want to do what then.
13 AB: I don't want to count to ten?
14 SD: What, how were you thinking you wanted to do it?
15 AB: I want to count higher.
16 SD: Well, it's usually best to count to ten and find out what's
17 going on so we can take care of you and then go back and
18 count again and then go back and count again. So that it
19 gets done with. It gets you a chance to grab your breath.
20 You know? Tell me why you think that you should have a
21 longer time. You think 15? Okay. If you need 15, I mean
22 this is, this is a co-created thing to give you relief.
23 Okay? When we go up and then we go back down. Okay? We go
24 up, get as much as we can and then we go back down and then
25 we get a chance to breathe and blow our noses and get a sip

5
1 of water if we need it, and be reassured that we7re not
2 really at that terrible place doing that terrible stuff that
3 we really hear. What's going on? Somebody7s trancing out
4 and I'm not doing it to you and I'm not wanting you to do it.
5 I'm wanting you to process this the same way you would school
6 information. Do you do that in school? You do? Somebody is
7 explaining a new way to do math and you look away the other,
8 and go into, trance yourself out?
9 AB: I'm thinking.
10 SD: What are you thinking? Think aloud, please.
11 AB: About what it's gonna be like. I'm worried.
12 SD: Okay. Tell me about your worry.
13 AB: I'm worried.
14 SD: Tell me about your worry. What are you worried of?
15 AB: Scared.
16 SD: Scared. Yeah. Can you tell me what, because there's all
17 different kinds of things that people might think that would
18 make them scared. What is your particular thought?
19 AB: Being scared.
20 SD: It's scary to be scared. Okay. Okay. I understand. It's
21 scary to be scared. Yes. And when it's really bad to be
22 scared is when you're really in a scary situation, like
23 you're really out there and they have you and they're
24 electro-shocking you. That's really scary and that's real at
25 that moment, because you, because it's real and because you

6
1 don't know when it's gonna stop and because you have no
2 control. And this is different than that. Because with
3 this, you know when it's going to stop. We'll go up to the
4 10 or 15 as agreed and back down and then it's done for that
5 moment. And also you have another way of saying stop also,
6 which is with the foot signal to say "stop," if for some
7 reason you just need to stop right then. Okay? So you have
8 some control over it. The other difference about this kind
9 of work is that when you were scared before when they were
10 doing it to you, you had no choice. They did it to you. And
11 they did it to enslave you and you're choosing it this time,
12 when you decide to choose it, all of you, so you can get
13 free. So you're choosing to be scared so you can get
14 something from it for yourself. So there's lots of
15 differences in getting scared in the abreaction than in
16 getting scared when something bad is really happening to you.
17 Okay? And is there anymore kind of scares like, like if I
18 really get this memory back that the cult told me not to get
19 back, then is anybody afraid that then something will happen
20 and you'll have to hurt yourself or if somebody inside will
21 have to hurt you? Okay. Now, you'll have to tell me if
22 anybody gets a whiff of that. Okay? I wouldn't lie to you
23 for a minute and say it's not going to be hard or difficult
24 work. And I would never, never, never, never in the world
25 want a kid to have to do this kind of work unless they have

7
1 already had such terrible and difficult things happen to them
2 that this is the only way that they could get free. This is
3 not the kind of thing that, uh, you know, recommend for a kid
4 who'd had just, you know, not such a hard time. And of
5 course, there is another diff, difference in, in, uh, the
6 scare of going through this kind of work, too, which is that
7 when you went throuoh it before, my impression has been that
8 most of the time, nobody was allowed to help you, or assist
9 you, or be there for you, and this time you will have people
10 there for you on your side. And you always wanted to have
11 people there for you before. Like your mother or your sister
12 or your daddy or somebody. And this time you will have. So,
13 um, where was I? Bethany. Yeah. Whoopsy. That's all that
14 got written about. Okay. What's our, what's our best, um,
15 use of the time today?
16 AB: The dream.
17 SD: You'd like to talk about the dream? Okay. I saw the picture
18 of the dream. Um, you call it a dream sometimes, but then
19 other times, you know, it was a memory, right? And what you
20 put on art work was a date of two years ago yesterday.
21 Right? Did you know that? On the picture of the dream, you
22 had written six, that's June, 18, which was yesterday's date,
23 '90, which is two years ago. So I think that somebody knew
24 that that was like an anniversary dream. Can I derail about
 

8
1 something else for a moment? Not derail but, um, switch just
2 for a second?
3 AB: Uh-huh.
4 SD: Um, and I want to see if this is related, and I don't know,
5 but you did have a short visit with your dad yesterday?
6 AB: Uh-huh.
7 SD: Real short. He didn't stay around very long. Um, how was
8 that visit?
9 AB: Good.
10 SD: Could I have everybody else listening in who was present for
11 that visit? Somebody had some trouble with that visit,
1 2 though, didn't they? Or did somebody know something about,
13 else about that visit?
14 AB: What kind of trouble?
15 SD: I don't know. (Pause) I noticed that it was a very short
16 visit, because I was there writing a note and then somebody
17 asked to speak to me in the other room for a few minutes,
18 then I came back and saw that he was gone.
19 AB: He had to go.
20 SD: And I thought to myself that that was an awfully short visit
21 and that if I'd been a little girl like Alice, I would have
22 been disappointed that it was so short. So that's one kind
23 of trouble about a visit.
24 AB: He can't come today.
25 SD: Uh-huh. How do you feel about that?

9
1 AB: Sad
2 SD: Uh-huh.
3 AB: I want him to come.
4 SD: Uh-huh.
5 AB: He always visits Mommy.
6 SD: Uh-huh. And stays a long time there, huh?
7 AB: He never stays a long time here. Sometimes, but not a lot.
8 SD: When you were at home, did you and he have lots of things to
9 talk about or games that you like to play together or, is he
10 a daddy who's never been around very much? Hum. Sometimes I
11 wonder if he isn't a daddy who would like to enjoy his family
12 more and cares about his family but just doesn't quite know
13 how to be with them. Is he kind of a shy daddy? Yeah? Or
14 do you have a different word for how he is?
15 AB: Shy.
16 SD: Shy is how he is? Hum. I had a shy daddy, too, when I was
17 growing up.
18 AB: You did?
1 9 SD: Uh-huh. My mother always kind of did the talking for him.
20 You know? And he could talk to her, but if we would be
21 alone, it was like he didn't know what to say to a little
2 2 girl. And I'd be kind of shy and I wouldn't know too much to
2 3 say to him, either. So some of our best times were, um,
25 there was a time we lived on a farm and he'd go out to mend
26 the fences and stuff and I'd go along to help him mend the

10
1 fences and I'd hand him nails and I'd, you know, hold wire
2 and push on posts and, you know, do that kind of stuff and
3 I'd be wishing I knew what to say to him, you know? I'd be
4 wishing that, that I could think of something to say to him
5 so we could talk. But I couldn't think of anything and it
6 seemed like he couldn't think of anything to say either or
7 he'd make a little comment and I wouldn't know what to do
8 with it, you know, like "It sure is a hot day." "Yeah, sure
9 is." (Laughter) We didn't know how to talk about feelings
10 to each other and I, and I didn't know, it would have seemed
11 too silly to say you know, "Daddy, here we are out in the
12 field, mending the fence so the cow can't get out and I'm
13 just kind of standing here loving you and not knowing what to
14 say" I mean, you don't say that to your daddy, you know. I
15 didn't know what to say. So I knew my daddy loved me and I
16 knew I loved him but it just, I didn't know what hardly to
17 say and he didn't know what to say to me. Well, so I don't,
18 I don't know. I just wondered if that was something like
19 what it was for you. Yeah? (Sigh) (Pause) Well, I didn't
20 know if, if that dream had anything to do with your daddy or
21 not, I just, but I just thought I'd check it out and see if
22 the visit had anything to do about it. Okay. Well, what do
23 you want to say about, um, have you, um, did you make him a
24 card or something for Father's Day? Yeah?
25 AB: I made him a little something in OT.

11
1 SD: Oh, where is it?
2 AB: In the cabinet outside.
3 SD: What did you make?
4 AB: An ash tray.
5 SD: An ash tray?
6 AB: Uh-huh. It looks like a rock. It's blue. It's like a light
7 blue.
8 SD: Uh-huh.
9 AB: And it goes like this then it does that, then it comes up the
10 side.
11 SD: You, maybe you'll, um, I can walk by it on the way out and
12 you can show me. That would be nice That's good. (Pause)
13 So who wants to talk about the dream? Is the dream part of
14 the Crystal work? I mean the memory.
15 AB: Huh-uh.
16 SD: No, it's just a separate thing, huh?
17 AB: Uh-huh.
18 SD: Uh-huh. (Pause) Did any, was anybody able to write about it?
19 AB: Huh-uh.
20 SD: No? (Sniff) It was about, uh, according to the drawing it
21 was about, or the art work, it was about electro-shock, too.
22 Right? Uh-huh. Three times in one night.
23 AB: No.
24 SD: No?
25 AB: Huh-uh.

12
1 SD: No what?
2 AB: (IA).
3 SD: What? Don't trance out on me, kiddo. This is not written
4 out and I have a feeling that who's having this memory has
5 not practiced doing things by 15's and we haven't gotten the
6 containment places set up and I'll bet more, more than one
7 person participated in this memory, too. Right? Yeah. So
8 if this is another thing that, to work on, it needs to be
9 written out, including the names of who was there so we can
10 do a good job on it. Okay? And you guys need to be able to
11 write about and have the memories, uh, the body memories and
12 the emotions stay back.
13 AB: Huh-uh.
14 SD: Yes, you do. Yes, you do.
15 AB: It won't.
16 SD: Okay. Do you want to dictate to me? And I would suggest
17 that you put what happened, because you saw it last night
18 very clearly and felt it as a memory. I suggest that you put
19 it on a screen as though you are back in the auditorium and
20 it's on the screen like at a movie. Okay? And just tell me
21 what happened like it's not you at all. Okay? So what is
22 the scene as the movie starts?
23 AB: Mommy's hitting.
24 SD: Mommy is hitting. Is it Alice or who? What's the names of
25 everybody getting hit?

13
1 AB: Katie.
2 SD: Katie.
3 AB: Dana.
4 SD: And Dana.
5 AB: And Kendra.
6 SD: And Kendra. Everybody was there getting hit two years ago
7 yesterday. And has part of, part of this, uh, event come and
8 give, give your names. Katie, Dana, Kendra. That's it?
9 AB: I didn't have a name.
10 SD: Okay. Well, you know who you are, dear. How old are you?
11 You're three? A three-year-old. You just came out to get
12 hit, huh? Now this is, this is the memory from June 18, '90,
13 1990. Okay. So the body was 11 years old, right?
14 AB: Uh-huh.
15 SD: The body was 11 years old. We have an age three one, Kendra,
16 Dana, Katie. Who else? Was Alice there or Alice wasn't?
17 AB: No.
18 SD: No Alice. Okay. Anybody else was there being hit? Okay.
19 Um, where's this happening? Where's the place?
20 AB: At a cult meeting.
21 SD: Cult meeting. What's the room?
22 AB: Big room.
23 SD: Big room.
24 AB: With a shock table.
 

14
1 SD: With shock table. Is there a reason that all, that you guys
2 are being hit?
3 AB: Uh-huh.
4 SD: What is the reason? Back up the screen. Back up the movie.
5 Back up the screen to what happened before the hitting so you
6 can see what you get told about it.
7 AB: No reason.
8 SD: No reason?
9 AB: No reason.
10 SD: Okay. Is there a crowd of people there or is it just you and
11 Mommy?
12 AB: There's two men.
13 SD: Two men? Two men, Mommy and me, and you, right?
14 AB: Uh-huh.
15 SD: What are the, what do the two men look like?
16 AB: All in black.
17 SD: Do you know them?
18 AB: No.
19 SD: Men in black. You mean like the robes or just wearing black
20 pants?
21 AB: Robes.
22 SD: Men in black robes. How, how's Mommy dressed?
23 AB: Black.
24 SD: Same thing? How is the body dressed? See it on the screen.
25 AB: Not dressed.

15
1 SD: Okay. At the start of this, does Mommy tell the body to do
2 something? What does she say?
3 AB: Take off your clothes.
4 SD: Okay. And on the screen, do you see her taking off her
5 clothes? On the screen, does she take off her clothes?
6 AB: Uh-huh.
7 SD: Like Mommy says.
8 AB: Not at first.
9 SD: So first she refused. Okay.
10 AB: And they put her on the table.
11 SD: Refused and then did Mommy hit you and then you, you did it
12 or did Mommy just say, "Do it now"?
13 AB: Mommy put me on the shock table.
14 SD: Okay. How about getting the clothes off? How did, uh, they
15 make the girl take her clothes off?
16 AB: They shocked her.
17 SD: With her clothes on?
18 AB: Huh-uh.
19 SD: How did they make her take her clothes off?
20 AB: They pulled them off.
21 SD: They pulled them off?
22 AB: The men pulled them all off.
 
 
 

16
1 SD: That is scary right by itself. Put body on table. Shocked.
2 Can anybody tell me, look on the screen to see where the
3 wires get put.
4 AB: All over.
5 SD: All over is where? Tell me, take a close look.
6 AB: All over the legs.
7 SD: Wires on legs.
8 AB: And the arms.
9 SD: Arms.
10 AB: On the chest.
11 SD: Chest.
12 AB: That's all.
13 SD: Noth... none on the head?
14 AB: No.
15 SD: None in the ears?
16 AB: No.
17 SD: The eyes, the nose, the mouth?
18 AB: The mouth.
19 SD: Huh?
20 AB: The mouth.
21 SD: I'm sorry?
22 AB: The mouth.
23 SD: Mouth. Since they took the, I know, um, to, keep seeing this
24 on the screen like it was happening to somebody else. They
 

17
1 took her, the girl's clothing off. Did they put any wires
2 (clears throat) in her private places?
3 AB: Uh-huh.
4 SD: One private place or two?
5 AB: One.
6 SD: One private place. Okay. You're a very brave girl and this
7 will help you to get rid of the (IA). And then she was
8 shocked. And then what happened after that? Let the movie
9 go forward. And stay back from the movie. Stay back from,
10 from it so it's just a movie. Is this a fuzzy movie like
11 sometimes when you see a movie about somebody, did you ever
12 see a movie or TV show when somebody was supposed to be drunk
13 or dizzy?
14 AB: Uh-huh.
15 SD: Okay. Is this movie like that? Like it's being seen by
16 somebody drunk or dizzy? (Pause) You're doing a very good
17 job. (Pause) What happened then?
18 AB: Mommy took the wires off.
19 SD: Uh-huh. Did she say anything?
20 AB: No.
21 SD: Did they say anything while they were doing the shocking?
22 AB: They chanted.
23 SD: What did they chant?
24 AB: I don't know. I can't understand it.
 

18
1 SD: Okay. While I have this foot out here, would you numb it up,
2 please? All I want is a "yes" answer. I won't bother about
3 the "No." If I don't get a "yes," I'll know it's "No." Okay?
4 I'm wondering if anybody inside the body listening to the
5 sound track on the movie knows that chant. If you do, would
6 you just give the "yes" signal, please? If anybod... of you
7 guys inside listening to the chant on the movie know it, know
8 the words. Okay. Thank you. Let the foot have feeling
9 again. Okay? Okay. Mommy took the wires off, and then
10 what?
11 AB: What are you writing?
12 SD: I wrote back up here to say that "Katie, Dana, Kendra and the
13 age three ones were the ones feeling the feelings." I just
14 backed up so that that would be real clear to me or to Dr.
15 Peterson or whoever. Okay? Mommy took the wires off.
16 AB: And pulled me off the table.
17 SD: And pulled the girl off the table. And then what?
18 AB: Started hitting me.
19 SD: So she began the hitting again? What was she hitting with?
20 There was, was there, when I saw the picture I thought I saw
21 something with it. What was that?
22 AB: A board.
23 SD: And then what happened? Did anybody new join the body? Who
24 joined the body then?
25 AB: The two-year-old.

10
1 SD: The two year old? The-two-year old joined the pain. Anybody
2 else?
3 AB Huh-uh.
4 SD: Okay. Did anybody else join the body when you guys were
5 being shocked? Nope? Okay. Then what happened?
6 AB: I got hit for a long time.
7 SD: She hit for a long time. Did the, were the men still there?
8 AB: Yeah.
9 SD: Huh?
10 AB: Yes.
11 SD: Did the girl fall down or anything?
12 AB: Uh-huh.
13 SD: Tell me how you see her on the screen.
14 AB: Laying on her stomach.
15 SD: On her stomach.
16 AB: Scared.
17 SD: Scared.
18 (Voices in background)
19 AB: Scared.
20 SD: Very scared, yes. I have a feeling that your peers are,
21 might be getting ready for dinner.
22 AB: No.
23 SD: No?
24 AB: They're gone.
25 SD: They're gone?

20
1 AB: Uh-huh.
2 SD: Oh, okay. I just wanted to check and see what you wanted to
3 do.
4 AB: I want to finish.
5 SD: Okay. I'm still with you. I wouldn't say good-bye. The
6 girl fell down on her stomach and she was scared. And was
7 the mother saying anything while she's doing this hitting?
8 She never says why she's doing this or what the girl is
9 supposed to do or any message about the girl, who she is or
10 how she is?
11 AB: Bad girl. Bad girl.
12 SD: Over and over or just twice?
13 AB: Over and over.
14 SD: Okay. And then what?
15 AB: That's all.
16 SD: I thought, um, Pat had, uh, said that you had gotten shocked
17 more than once.
18 AB: No. Hit three times.
19 SD: Okay. Is there another break in the hitting, then? Later in
20 the night?
21 AB: We went home.
22 SD: Uh-huh. We went home. And?
23 AB: Mommy hit me again.
24 SD: Who is present for the hitting at home?
 

21
1 AB: Nobody.
2 SD: Who's in the body? As you look, look at the movie. Still
3 these same ones? Plus the two-year-old? Does she, Mommy say
4 anything at home?
5 AB: Bad girl.
6 SD: Why is nobody else at home?
7 AB: Cathy's locked in her room.
8 SD: She didn't go to the meeting this night?
9 AB: She did but Cathy is locked in her room.
10 SD: Cathy is locked, did she lock herself in?
11 AB: No, Mommy did.
12 SD: Did she go home with you in the car?
13 AB: Uh-huh.
14 SD: Where was she while you were getting beaten?
15 AB: With, with Auree.
16 SD: With who?
17 AB: Auree.
18 SD: With Laurie?
19 AB: Auree. With Auree.
20 SD: With Auree. Auree's the bad cult lady, isn't she? So Cathy
21 had been with Auree. I don't know how to spell that.
22 AB: A-U-R-E-E.
23 SD: And you all came together, home together in the car?
24 AB: Uh-huh.
 

22
1 SD: So Cathy and Mommy and you come home together in the car or
2 did somebody else drive?
3 AB: Auree.
4 SD: Uh-huh. Driven, so you guys were driven home by Auree?
5 Where's Daddy?
6 AB: I don't know.
7 SD: Don't know where Daddy is. Is there something left out of
8 this story? Uh-huh. What?
9 AB: The last part.
10 SD: Okay. I'm listening. The last part of the meeting?
11 AB: No. At home.
12 SD: Okay. Last part at home. What was that?
13 AB: Mommy sent me to my room.
14 SD: Uh-huh.
15 (Side A ends)
16 (Side B begins)
17 SD: What is the ending of the movie as you look at it? Does the
18 little girl finally kind of go to sleep or stop or just kind,
19 or does she stay awake until Mommy stops and goes to her room
20 and leaves her?
21 AB: Stays awake until Mommy stopped. (Pause) Then she goes to
22 sleep.
23 (Long pause)
24 SD: This was a sad and terrible memory.
25 AB: Uh-huh.

23
1 SD: Is there any part that got left out in the middle, do you
2 think? Uh-huh. Do you want to back up to that part to tell
3 me now?
4 AB: Uh-huh.
5 SD: Is there any part about the men?
6 AB: Uh-huh.
7 SD: Uh-huh. Sweetheart, that is shame on them, not on you.
8 AB: Uh-huh.
9 SD: How I know to ask that is because other people have had these
10 same terrible kinds of experiences. (IA) I don't know where
11 the Kleenex is in this room. (IA) I don't see it. Not that
12 you ought to stop. I hate they did that. I hate that very
13 much.
14 AB: Uh-huh.
15 SD: We've never had much conversation about the private parts.
16 You know?
17 AB: Uh-huh.
18 SD: You know, because I've waited for you to be, to be ready to
19 tell some of that when you were ready. (Long pause) And I
20 know it's very hard to say those words and to tell about that
21 part. And anybody inside except Katie and Dana and Kendra
22 should go on back inside and let them have some privacy to
23 see if they feel like saying some words about it. Is that a
24 "no"? You guys don't want to go away or a "no," they don't
25 want to talk about it? Oh, I'm sorry. I messed you up. Did

24
1 everybody else go away except Katie and Dana and Kendra?
2 Yeah, they did. Okay. You guys do not have to talk about
3 this today if you don't want to. You get to stay clothed
4 with what happened to you. But I know to get free of those
5 men and free of what happened, sometime you're going to have
6 to tell somebody that you can trust what happened. But you
7 get to choose when to do it. You get to choose when. Would
8 you like anymore (IA) have your hand held?
9 AB: Uh-huh.
10 SD: Huh? Yeah. Okay. You don't, I don't touch you in any way
11 that you don't want to be touched. Not even to give you a
12 hug, that's always your choice. It's always your choice (IA)
13 AB: (Sniff) (IA)
14 SD: Can you use the words to tell me what happened?
15 AB: (IA)
16 SD: Huh?
17 AB: (IA)
18 SD: You guys take a look at me and you're going to say "yes" or
19 "no" and I will honor whatever you want to do. If you want
20 to talk about it now or if you want to put that part off for
21 some other time, it's up to you.
22 AB: (IA)
23 SD: Take a look at me. Check and see who it is. Do you want to
24 talk about it now? Okay. I'm listening. Can you move the
 

25
1 screen back and see what happened with the little girl in the
2 room?
3 AB: They touched me and I didn't like it.
4 SD: They touched you and you didn't like it. No indeed. Can you
5 say the words for where they touched you and what part of
6 their body they used? If you don't want to say that now,
7 say, "No, I don't want to say that now." You're nodding your
8 head "yes." Does that mean, yes, you do want to say it?
9 Okay. I'm still listening.
10 AB: (IA)
11 SD: Pardon me?
12 AB: (IA)
13 SD: They touched you around your genitals?
14 AB: Uh-huh.
15 SD: Okay. With their hands or with something else?
16 AB: Both.
17 SD: Pardon me?
18 AB: Both.
19 SD: I didn't hear you.
20 AB: (IA)
21 SD: I still don't hear you.
22 AB: Both.
23 SD: Both. Both their hands and what else?
24 AB: Their private area.
 

26
1 SD: Their private area? Do you know the name for the man's part?
2 The word for the man's part is penis. A man has a penis and
3 under the penis are the parts that are called testicles and
4 they hang down. So they touched you on your private parts
5 with their hands and with their penis. And you didn't like
6 it.
7 AB: No.
8 SD: And they had no right to do that.
9 AB: No.
10 SD: Are they doing that while you were being shocked or right
11 before or right after?
12 AB: Before.
13 SD: Right before. Right before. They were very bad. And
14 they're very bad. That is called rape. It is called rape
15 and it's very, very bad and they had no right to do that.
16 AB: (IA)
17 SD: Huh?
18 AB: (IA)
19 SD: Mommy went away and left you with them? That was very bad
20 of your mommy and it makes me very, very angry with her. A
21 mother is supposed to protect her child. And she's supposed
22 to say, "No, you will never touch my child like that. No,
23 you will never do that." And "Get away" and "I'm protecting
24 my child." That's what a mother's supposed to do. I'm very
25 angry at your mother right now.

27
1 AB: (IA)
2 SD: Certainly the part of your mommy that did that did, I guess
3 did not care. That part that did, of your mommy that did
4 that loved the cult and loved the cult men better than she
5 loved Alice.
6 AB: I was so scared.
7 SD: Huh?
8 AB: I'm scared.
9 SD: You're scared?
10 AB: It wasn't fair.
11 SD: No, it wasn't fair. Your mother and two big men against a
12 little girl. It wasn't fair, it wasn't fair, it wasn't fair.
13 It was mean and it was wrong. And they should be very, very
14 ashamed of themselves and I hope they have bad dreams every
15 single night. (Pause) And you're a very brave girl. (Pause)
16 And what would Katie and Dana and Kendra and the age three
17 one, now was anybody else present for the rape?
18 AB: Uh-huh.
19 SD: Somebody else was present for the rape?
20 AB: Princess.
21 SD: Francis?
22 AB: Princess.
23 SD: Oh, Princess was present for the rape. Unglue this hand here
24 while I need to need to write that down because poor Princess
25 needs to have relief about that, too.

28
1 AB: (IA)
2 SD: One Princess or two Princess?
3 AB: One.
4 SD: Princess number one? Princess present. I'm so sorry,
5 Princess. All of you guys need to know that that was not
6 your fault in any way whatsoever and that that shouldn't have
7 happened to you. And that we want to get you protected so
8 that nothing ever, ever happens to you again. Did the men,
9 or Mom, did the men tell you any lies while this was
10 happening?
11 AB: (IA)
12 SD: Any messages? Sometimes those bad men will tell lies while
13 they're doing this.
14 AB: I don't remember.
15 SD: You don't remember any? Anything that they said that wasn't
16 true? That it was supposed to shame you or supposed to make
17 you feel even worse?
18 AB: Bad girl.
19 SD: Huh?
20 AB: Bad girl.
21 SD: They kept saying you were a bad girl? Well, they were the
22 bad men. That is the truth. Did you tell Carol about
23 this later? No? You never told anybody before?
24 AB: No.
 

29
1 SD: It's very, very hard to tell this. It's very, very hard to
2 tell this and you were very brave. And you need to know that
3 I still know that you1re a good person and that wasn't your
4 fault. And I still like you very much. And the shame
5 belongs to them. And that I'm very, very mad at your mom.
6 Would you like for me to take a peek, just to know
7 who's...you did not deserve this to happen. And I'm very
8 angry. I really want to help keep you safe. I want to tell
9 everybody about talking with Chrissy Dahl on the telephone
10 today. But before we call the others back, is there anything
11 Katie or Dana or Princess or Kendra or the age three one want
12 from me right now? Is that, is that called a hug? Yes.
13 Yes. Okay. And everybody that wants the hug come up close
14 and the ones that don't, go back. Because I only want to
15 give the hug to those that need it. Okay? Okay. You always
16 get to control the hugs. Okay. You guys have done such an
17 amazing good job today. Are you cold now?
18 AB: Huh-uh.
19 SD: Oh, just kind of giving yourself a little hug too, huh?
20 Okay. Can we have, um, the other folks for a few minutes
21 just to talk about the call that I had with Chrissy today?
22 AB: Uh-huh.
23 SD: Yeah. Okay. Do you want me to find your Kleenex and have a
24 blow first?
25 AB: It was hidden behind here.
(Pages 31 and 32 are missing)

30

1 SD: Um, so I was telling her about the very good work that you
2 have done and, um, and that Carol has been doing and it
3 would be helpful if you guys could write her a letter.
4 AB: Okay.
5 SD: About the memories that you have gotten back, and I could
6 help you with that, if you like. Okay? Because there's a
7 committee that meets and the committee's never gonna come to
8 meet you in person, you know, but they're a committee and, I
9 mean, you know, several people and it's their job to find you
10 the very safest, best place for you to be, and so that they
11 can understand what your life has been like and what kind of
12 girl you are and all of those things. It would be helpful to
13 them if you would write a letter, and so I thought maybe I
14 could help you do that on Monday. What would you think about
15 that? You don't have to, you know, because your mother has
16 written a letter and I'm having your mother write another
17 letter.
18 AB: About what?
19 SD: Your mother wrote a letter about things that she had done to
20 you so that Child Protective Services would know that they
21 had to protect you.
22 AB: I'll never go back to live with Mommy again.
23 SD: Well, you won't go until she's safe.
24 AB: I don't ever want to go.

33
1 SD: Well, it could be that that's how it is. Because it could be
2 that we might not be able to have your mother be safe for you
3 to go home until you're a grown lady. That is a possibility.
4 AB: What about Cathy?
5 SD: Um, yes, we want her to have a safe place to be, also.
6 AB: Together?
7 SD: That depends. That depends on, see, you'll continue with
8 therapy, I'm sure after you leave here.
9 AB: With you?
10 SD: It depends where you would go. I would like to continue with
11 you.
12 AB: Would they take me out of Texas?
13 SD: I don't know. I don't think so. I don't think so. If they
14 put you someplace safe that is close enough for me to go to,
15 you know, then I'd like to go there and to continue to see
16 you. But if they have to put you out of town somewhere, then
17 I wouldn't be able to see you, probably very, very rarely,
18 and then they'd have to get you another good therapist. Of
19 course, it would be very hard for them to get somebody as
20 good as me. I realize that that's, I mean, it's a pretty big
21 job, but, um, (laughter) maybe they can get, you know,
22 somebody who's pretty good.
23 AB: Can I go back to school normal?
24 SD: Can you what?
25 AB: Go back to school normal?

34
1 SD: Oh. My thought is that it will be probably, see now, I'm
2 just thinking. Okay?
3 AB: Yeah.
4 SD: So this is no guarantee, but I think it'll be something like
5 kind of a, probably it will be something like a residential
6 place that has maybe sort of like, like private school or
7 something or a place where maybe a dozen girls might live and
8 then go to school at a school, a regular school, yeah. I
9 think that's probably what it would be like. And probably
10 you would have a chance to take the courses that you want and
11 be in the sports that you want and be in the kind of school
12 clubs that you want and have regular friends and all that
1 3 good kind of stuff. But anyway, um, well, you can think
14 about it. You don't have to write Chrissy a letter.
15 AB: I want to.
16 SD: Huh?
17 AB: I want to.
18 SD: You'd like to? Okay. You can either, um, it should, it
19 should include the information about the lobster cage. Okay?
20 It should include that story. And it, um, if somebody's able
21 to write, um, if some of it's too uncomfortable to write
22 without me being here, then just wait on it. Okay? But if
23 you want to start the letter over the weekend and then kind
24 of stop in the middle of it and then I could help you finish
25 up the hard parts, if you like.
35
1 AB: Is it to Chrissy?
2 SD: Yes, it's to Chrissy Dahl and the committee.
3 AB: Is C.P.S. an office?
4 SD: C.P.S. stands for Child Protective Services.
5 AB: I know, but is it an office?
6 SD: They have lots of offices. They have, uh, one kind of
7 office, they have at least one office building in Houston and
8 probably more than one. I don't really know. Although, I
9 have a girlfriend that works with them. She works very, very
10 hard, but, um, she's not, Chrissy isn't in her department.
11 So they're in, in offices, you know? They don't meet in
12 trees, either.
13 AB: But do they have like orphanages?
14 SD: Uh, no. They don't run orphanages or residential treatment
15 centers themselves. They just find good ones.
16 AB: Will I go to an orphanage?
17 SD: No, I don't think so. They're called residential treatment
18 centers. I thought that was pretty exciting, so I could
19 hardly wait to tell you that. Okay, kiddo, you need to
20 probably get your dinner, right?
2 1 AB: Right.
22 SD: Yeah. Oh, that was a long session we just had.
23 AB: How long?
24 SD: Well, it was, uh, close to an hour and a half, I think.
25 AB: Wow.
36
1 SD: Yeah. It's good work. Uh!!
2 (Side B ends) (Tape ends)
 
 

37